ATOS LIMA FOI REQUEST - THE RESULT.

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ATOS LIMA FOI REQUEST - THE RESULT.

Postby admin » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:44 pm

After chasing up this request for a copy of the lima software, as used by ATOS for DWP medical assessments, we have received a reply (we were told it had already been emailed to us, but there is no record of any previous copy of the email)

Thank you for your Freedom of Information request received on 9th July 2009. You asked for:-

A downloadable copy of the LiMA Software

Logic Integrated Medical Assessment (LiMA) software only functions as an interactive process during an assessment, it has no independent function and is designed to run on Atos Healthcare networked based PCs not standalone PCs. Furthermore we have decided not to release specific technical data relating to LiMA software for the following reasons.

Reasons for claiming exemption

We consider the information exempt from disclosure under section 43 (2) of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (the “Act”). This is because, in our opinion, the disclosure of the information under the Act would, or would be likely to, prejudice the commercial interests of both DWP and a third party licensee of DWP.

In this regard, we can tell you that DWP holds copyright, the intellectual property rights and has licensed a third party to use, customise, distribute, incorporate, market, maintain, support, sell and sub-license LiMA (and other software) in return for payment of a royalty to DWP. In that licence, DWP confirms that it will not, in effect, allow any other party similar rights.

The LiMA software program is not only integral to the conduct of DWP business, it also represents a significant commercial interest to the DWP. Therefore we decline to provide the software, any technical or other information that would enable full or partial reproduction of the LiMA system.

While we acknowledge that, if supplied to you, the information would continue to be protected by the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (which would prohibit certain commercial re-use of the information by you) we have, after full consideration, reached the conclusion that the likelihood of prejudice to our commercial interests, and those of our licensee, remains. The information has inherent commercial value in terms of the business methods it reflects and the concepts it employs, neither of which is adequately protected by the terms of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act.

To place this information in the public domain would undermine the basis of the arrangement reached by DWP with its licensee, as it would threaten the uniqueness of the information upon which assessments of commercial risk and return have been made and in relation to which commercial positions have been adopted and acted upon by the parties. We also consider that release of the information would be likely to place DWP at a significant disadvantage in seeking to secure similar licensing arrangements with third parties in the future.

In applying the exemption under section 43 (2) of the Act, we have considered whether, in all the circumstances of the case, the public interest in maintaining the exemption outweighs the public interest in disclosing the information. We have concluded that it does. We have reached this conclusion because, in our view, the public interest in understanding how the LiMA system works, and in being assured that the LiMA system properly reflects and supports the identification and assessment of benefit entitlements, can be met by a non-technical description of the system, and the role it is intended to play in the decision making process.

We are also mindful of the fact that any public concerns about the integrity of LiMA can be met and fully addressed through due process of the benefit system itself, which contains rights of review and appeal covering both the DWP’s decision on entitlement to benefit, and the process by which that decision is arrived at. Conversely, we do not believe that the public interest would be served by creating an environment, which adversely impacts the public sector’s ability to obtain a secondary benefit from its investment in information systems.

Were the public sector to release, under the Act, commercially valuable information such as that inherent in the LiMA system, the public sector would find it difficult to engage the expertise of commercial licensees (an expertise the public sector does not have) in deriving latent value from its information systems, to the detriment of the general taxpayer who would be deprived of the royalty revenue which might otherwise be realisable. For these reasons, we believe that it is right to maintain the exemption in relation to the specific information you seek.

If you have any queries about this letter please contact me quoting the reference number above.



Comments anyone?

Im rather tired, and my head is not functioning properly at the moment, but overall, I feel natural justice is being denied due to profit.

The other tired old excuse of not running on a normal pc was also trotted out, despite the request explaining why it was not the case.

Will comment in more detail at a later date, in the mean time if anyone has any comments, or suggestions please post!
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Re: ATOS LIMA FOI REQUEST - THE RESULT.

Postby rjp53 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:32 am

What a load of hogwash,sounds like dwp are hiding behind commercial laws to keep everyone in the dark about the software,if this is the case then they must have something to hide about this unfare system.How can they judge people but not tell how they are being judged,communism here we come............... :cry:
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Re: ATOS LIMA FOI REQUEST - THE RESULT.

Postby admin » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:53 pm

Have to say, completely agree..

Its a vital part of justice that the accused should be able to understand the process.

just because they make money from the tool does not mean that people should lose the right know the trial is fair.

The truth will come out in the end, eventually.

I cant imagine the public actually be happier to see a company profit over the right to a fair trial - imagine if the justice system did this, and courts used software to put people in prison.

The fact that their would be an appeal process would be a cold comfort if people had strong suspicions to believe the software was flawed, and led to false convictions. The public interest would clearly be to overule the profit, and have the software examined - a benefits exam is exactly the same, its a trial where they try to prove you guilty of not being as ill as you claim.Or rather,more specifically, where they try to find ways to find you fit for work, despite whatever your disability is. Fine if its all above board - not fine if the software is biased in any way.

They are obviously hiding something, the software is nothing special and could be replicated quite easily (the only hard part would be making it as unfair as it seems to be now, anyone replicating it, if they stuck to the rules would do a better job I feel), I just think they dont want the truth exposed.
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Re: ATOS LIMA FOI REQUEST - THE RESULT.

Postby JET » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:02 pm

Could my questions be posted.Thank you.
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Re: ATOS LIMA FOI REQUEST - THE RESULT.

Postby admin » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:49 pm

Hi Jet,

What is your question?

I have looked and their are no posts in the moderation queue, did you save it as a draft instead of submiting it?

If you have already tried to post, its not showing up here, could you try posting again?

Please remember the first 3 posts for everyone are delayed by the board until someone gets a chance to approve them, but its done once a day at least.

Thanks for joining, and look forward to your questions.
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Re: ATOS LIMA FOI REQUEST - THE RESULT.

Postby JET » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:40 am

Has the accuracy of medical reports generated by LiMA (Logic integrated Medical Assessment software) been challenged in court?
Has a judge ever said that the software was inaccurate or biased towards a negative outcome for the patient. I saw a report somewhere? Benefits & Work Guides you can Trust, years ago?

If the (Logic integrated Medical Assessment software) cannot be assessed by an impartial independent body,there may be a legal argument for overriding commercial law, in favour of public interest issues. What about infringement of human rights law,The Disability Discrimination act? Would any of these approaches be workable? If you can show that the software is not fit for purpose,negative decisions could be legally challenged? Thank You.
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Re: ATOS LIMA FOI REQUEST - THE RESULT.

Postby newshound » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:48 am

Good question, Im not sure to be honest.

I vaguely remember reading something where it was pointed out how the software was capable of bias in the sense it defaulted to certain things, ie could lead to accidental bias due to the way it was programmed, but I cant recall the link - will have a dig around see if I can find it.

The hard part is actually proving any bias, or wrong doing on the part of the software, when no one is allowed to examine the software...

We cant find out what questions it refuses to ask in certain circumstances, what weight it gives to answers etc.

Normally you should have the right to understand all the evidence that is used against you, and anyone presenting evidence would have to prove the full process of how the evidence came to be.

Thats why many court cases get thrown out, in cases where its proven evidence was not collected properly, for example the scene had been contaminated etc, or the correct procedures were not followed.

With the LIMA software, its all secret, and no one but ATOS and the DWP know the truth.

Im hoping, as many are, that a way will be found to force their hand so they have to release the software.

The only other alternative, is to wait 30 years until its exempt from commercial interests and ask then, which would enable retrospective proof of the wrong doing, but thats no help to anyone now...
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Re: ATOS LIMA FOI REQUEST - THE RESULT.

Postby JET » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:16 am

Maybe you could try to prove that individual doctors were biased or incompetent.

http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/l ... -tribunal-

People have to tackle these medicals from every conceivable angle?

A related question:

1,000000 people off incapacity benefits by 2015

Under the current appeals system,would the government reach their proposed targets? They must be drafting legislation in favour of meeting said targets? The current appeals system, would cause a massive backlog of cases? Have they recruited a massive amount of new DWP staff to deal with the appeals process? ThankYou.
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Re: ATOS LIMA FOI REQUEST - THE RESULT.

Postby terratech » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:51 pm

hiya guys... First post and dont want to look like I`m solicitoring since I own the site I`m posting this link up from however I feel that it has some Significance on the issue. I think you`d have to read to beleive it... Its quite lengthy but links atos with some questionable behaviour with Unumprovident another player that has been taken to court over its practices but in america.

New Labour, the market state, and the end of welfare
Take a look at the connections between government and the insurance business in their joint project to reduce eligibility for sickness benefits

Go Here http://raw-rap.com/blog/new-labour-the-market-state-and-the-end-of-welfare.html
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Re: ATOS LIMA FOI REQUEST - THE RESULT.

Postby admin » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:05 pm

No problem, we are all on the side of justice and getting claimaints a fairer deal :)

Will take a look at that link when I get a chance, cheers!
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